Bridging Divides podcast: episode one

[On-screen text in the top right, throughout the video: “British Red Cross”]

[Opening Scene: Ambient music begins quietly in the background. Podcast host Sonali Shah, and expert guest Jake Puddle, are sat in a darkly lit podcast studio. There are lots of books, artwork and lamps on the wall in the background, and two white armchairs in the foreground, where Sonali and Jake are sat. They are talking into microphones and separated by a wooden coffee table. A fast-paced montage of podcast studio shots and clips from later in the episode begins.]

[On-screen text: “Coming up”.]

Sonali Shah (00:00):

If someone wanted to do something this week, what could they do?

[Montage: Clips from later in the conversation fade in and out.]

Jake Puddle (00:05):

[Intro clip 1] Something that's proven by research is this idea of “pre bunking”, kind of getting there early to challenge misinformation before it takes root.

[Intro clip 2] 85% of the public don't fall into those “extreme of the extremes”.

[Intro clip 3] We go for a bit of a dopamine hit online, and we should really step back from looking at debating politics with dopamine-brain, thinking how can I win this argument? How can I come up with that zinger of a punchline that's going to “own” the other person?

[Intro clips and ambient backing music end.]

[On-screen text: Bridging Divides logo on a yellow background with colourful oval shapes.]

[Intro scene: Podcast Host Sonali Shah sits in the studio, speaking directly to camera.]

[On screen text: Sonali Shah, Podcast Host, Bridging Divides]

Sonali Shah (00:35):

I'm Sonali, and this is Bridging Divides; a podcast series from the British Red Cross exploring why we feel so divided, and what we can actually do to change this. We know this is on a lot of people's minds and it's something we care deeply about too. We've spoken to thousands of you, listened to your stories, your hopes and fears, and designed this series to help you feel informed, confident, and compassionate when having those difficult conversations on divisive topics. I'll be joined by leading thinkers and practitioners to help us unpack what's happening around the country, our communities, and our kitchen tables. Think of this as your toolkit - full of knowledge and actions that you can take today to make a difference. Bridge-building starts with each of us.

[Intro scene ends]

[On-screen text: Bridging Divides logo on a yellow background with colourful oval shapes.]

[Main conversation: Cut to two-person studio setup. Sonali and Jake sit facing each other. The rest of the episode is a conversation between Sonali and Jake.]

Sonali Shah (01:32):

It feels as if we are living in very divided times, but what's going on behind the headlines on your social feeds? Well, I'm your host, Sonali Shah. In today's episode, we'll break down what division really is. So, here to start us off with understanding what's driving us apart, and what we can do about it, is our first expert, Jake Puddle. He's the director of research at British Future, an organisation that gets to the heart of how the public think and feel about some of the most divisive issues today. And Jake is the co-author of 'The State of Us Report’, one of the most in-depth studies on community strength and cohesion in the UK. Jake, thank you so much for joining us.

When we talk about feeling divided, or feeling that sense of division around us, what does that actually look like in everyday life?

[On-screen text: ‘Jake Puddle, Director of Research, British Future’]

Jake Puddle (02:31):

Yeah, thank you. It's great to be here. So, as you mentioned, my organisation, British Future, have done quite a lot of research around this. And in particular, we led a large study after the 2024 riots to go out into communities with another charity called the Belong Network to hold conversations in places where those tensions had risen up, and other parts of the UK, the other nations and regions as well. And in terms of what we were picking up, there were four key themes that we were particularly worried about that we felt had led to this sense of tension and division that so many of us are feeling and seeing around communities here. And those were firstly that we have this really hotly contested debate about our asylum system. I think that's something that obviously manifested a lot during the riots, and it's to a large extent continued since. And it's really not helped I suppose at all by the fact that the way in which people seeking asylum when they arrive in the UK are housed. It's quite visible but quite separate from other communities.

Jake Puddle (03:41):

So, that was creating a sense of division in the conversations that we were having around people who had different viewpoints on that theme. Social media is a biggie as well. That's something that comes up a lot. We're more exposed to often quite sensational, quite “clickbait-y” headlines that really ramp up a sense of threat. You add to that cocktail that we've got to be alert to the fact that the economy's been in a tough state for quite a long time, and that's put pressure on many people. It's put pressure on our public services. So that can aggravate divisions that might have been there before. It can also really heighten a sense of what we call “zero sum thinking”, so this idea that somebody else's gain is my loss. If somebody else is being given access to a service, be that from a charity or be that from government…

Sonali Shah (04:30):

Then I won’t get it.

Jake Puddle (04:31):

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And then lastly, there's a sense of mistrust in politicians to do something about all of these issues. And so, I suppose, you put all of these ingredients together and that's why I think many are feeling this sense of division. There are these different views circulating around society, and then there are a lot of aggravating factors that, I suppose, are amplifying our differences over our commonality as well.

Sonali Shah (04:54):

We had to persuade my father to put the shutters down on his pharmacy early because we weren't sure whether he would be affected or not. So, I remember that time well.

There is, of course, this strong feeling that things are worse than ever. Is it true? Are we actually more divided than ever?

Jake Puddle (05:14):

There have been other points in our history where definitely we've been really divided. Even in our more recent history, we've seen very fiercely polarised debates about the asylum system, for example, back in the nineties as well. I think there are new contributing factors. I think particularly us being in a more online, a more digital age, I think that can make our sense of polarisation feel, to an extent, more immediate, in many different ways. I think we're one click away now from somebody who often has a very drastically different opinion to us. Often one click away from somebody who might have a hateful opinion, as well. So, I suppose that exposure is larger than it's ever been in the past. I think, as well, as I touched on, social media companies and their algorithms can also amplify the opinions that are most likely to trigger engagement, to trigger likes or re-shares or comments. I suppose that can give more share of public voice on those platforms to people who have the boldest, most controversial views - and maybe less voice to those who might have nuanced or ‘both sides’ views or quieter views that might be somewhere in the middle.

Jake Puddle (06:27):

If we do look at previous decades, it used to be much easier to come together in spaces where common ground was easier to find. So, there were more community centres, more youth clubs, more libraries. What we used to call ‘associational community life’ was stronger. Definitely one of the things that came out of our research is that a lot of those spaces where we used to meet and mix - even the kind of more commercial spaces like the high street - have been in a state of quite long-term decline in many parts of the UK now. If anything, that's driving us more online, and it's creating less spaces where we might just fire up a conversation with our neighbour - who might be completely different to us, might be from a different walk of life to us, but where at least before we would've said “hi, hello” and held more of a conversation over the garden fence. To some extent that's weakened a little bit, I think, over the decades.

Sonali Shah (07:18):

So, from a historical perspective, this is something new. Because of the reasons you're outlining – and, of course, if you can't see someone's reaction to what you're saying or what you're trying to discuss, that might change how you discuss it.

Jake Puddle (07:34):

Yes, that's true, that's true. I mean I've been very “doom and gloom” so far, and I don't want to paint a picture of the state of our society as though it's irredeemably divided. I think one of the real highlights that also came out of our research - where we didn't just speak to the public but we spoke to a lot of community organisations, grassroots groups, faith leaders, and also actually with the public - is that there is a strong sense of ‘neighbourliness’ in our country that actually shapes up pretty well compared to other western societies like the US or France. We do resonate with a sense of needing to look out for people in our area. In our polling, we found that when people think about their immediate estate, their street, their neighbourhood, 70% actually think that they do rub along pretty well with people of different backgrounds in their local area. So that contrasts quite sharply with the state of the nation, but I think yeah, we need to be alive to the fact that some of these trends have been going on bit by bit by bit over time, where, yeah, we are spending less time connecting with others in our community. And we don't want to keep going on that trajectory, as it can end up in potentially some unhealthy places.

Sonali Shah (08:46):

Your comparison with other Western countries is interesting because the grass can look greener. So, how do we compare with other parts of the world?

Jake Puddle (08:56):

It's interesting. I think one thing that other think tanks, I think More in Common especially, have pointed out is that in the UK we don't have what is called ‘stacked identities’ as much as places like America. What that means is, where all of our political views are aligned on one side or the other. So, that might mean that you could maybe predict what somebody thinks about climate change based on whether or not they would wear a face mask, or how they feel about immigration, in a way that you have a ‘for or against’ binary polarisation of society. Actually, in the UK, we tend to be much more mixed in our opinions on different issues, in a way that you can't neatly cut society down the middle on many things. What that means is that it's easier for us to find commonality; if not on one issue area, then on another. That being said, we shouldn't take that distinction for granted. And certainly, I think some of the dynamics that we've seen in the US, I think, are slowly at risk of being imported to the UK. Certainly, we're seeing that in our media debate and some of the kind of social media content we're exposed to as well.

Sonali Shah (10:08):

That’s really interesting that we don't have that stacked sense of being, and actually we are a sum of our parts, and perhaps we're more nuanced. It's just that people don't always see the nuance, or want to hear or see it. You were talking earlier about how it's not just one factor that can cause division. Is it almost a case that we have a perfect storm going on? So, you have social media on this side, and the cost of living on this side, and other things going on around the world, that then is just creating this perfect storm because it all feeds into each other?

Jake Puddle (10:48):

We were definitely worried about that, and when we published our report, we mentioned at the time that we felt there was the potential for more disorder to bubble up again. And we did see in some parts of the UK in 2025, that sadly, that did reoccur. I don't think we should see it as a given, though. I think this is where it's really important - and I think where this podcast can also be a really useful contribution - is that we're all, as a society, trying to maybe ‘step back’ now, given how hot things have got, to have a think about, okay, what do we do about this? Where, even if it's natural for healthy disagreement to occur in our politics and in our communities, we're making sure it doesn't reach a level where there is a normalisation of prejudice or of violence; where we do have healthy spaces for democratic debate about practical concerns, about practical policies, and most importantly where we can strengthen a sense of connection as well - be that a shared sense of identity and belonging to the places where we live, or just an ability to put aside politics for a little bit and actually connect over things, be that sport or be taking care of our local area.

Sonali Shah (11:57):

That's just the thing: communities coming together. And there are so many places around the country where this does happen. At a grassroots level, people are doing great things to make sure that people have somewhere to go. But it's not happening everywhere. And that's just the thing. There's a huge risk, isn't there, with people feeling left behind, or unheard, just not seen?

Jake Puddle (12:28):

It's true. I mean, I would say there are definitely parts of the country where these spaces for coming together - they're fewer, they're further between. But, one thing that I did find reassuring, even in some of the locations we visited during our research that had very recently seen quite live tensions and even rioting, was that you would find once you scratched under the surface, community leaders were really keen to make a difference. Grassroots groups who were so embedded in those neighbourhoods, they'd been around for absolutely decades, often running their work on a shoestring, be it to just hold a free coffee morning for people who wanted a chat, or to convene a local event for a saint's day that was particular to that local area. I think those community leaders are in every part of the country and often it is just a case I think of them needing a bit of help to bounce back, maybe somewhere that they can set up a new activity, maybe just some new fresh legs to give them a hand putting the word out about what they're doing.

Sonali Shah (13:33):

And perhaps, people over the years have underestimated how much getting a community together- how important that is.

Jake Puddle (13:43):

People often talk about ‘how’ and ‘what’ can bring them together and we hear about the ‘three Fs’: which is Food, Family and Football. And I can get into the reasons why those things are so powerful as a social glue, but The Great Get Together in particular draws on food as something that is an act of giving, and it's an act of expression about our identity, our background, and most importantly, it's just a great icebreaker. If you convene people for a little street party on your street corner or down the local town hall, and you just encourage people to bring along some cakes or just something to nibble on. That can be such a fantastic way to inspire new conversations and to just sort of encourage people to take a pause off social media feeds, to better understand their neighbours. It's really gone to shine a spotlight on that appetite for connection as well, in that it's taking place right around the country, around the UK, attracting people who might in other situations be quite isolated, or definitely in many situations who might never otherwise have had a conversation with somebody from another faith to themselves or somebody from maybe a particular socioeconomic background, to really try and understand their different perspectives and life experiences as well.

Sonali Shah (15:00):

In a way it sounds so simple. You just need to get parts of the community together, whatever it might take, whether it be a joint celebration or celebrating each other's cultures, or just getting together over food. If people get together, it sounds like divisions just don't grow as much.

Jake Puddle (15:23):

Well, actually I think, in social science, I think one of the best proven areas of research is this idea of Social Contact Theory. And, in particular, when you create a positive environment for what we call ‘bridging connections’ - so, I guess that links to the name of this podcast - but essentially spaces where people do interact with others that are outside of their usual group, outside of their bubble, it essentially can create more trust, more empathy, more of a shared sense of neighbourliness and a shared sense of having stuff in common. We've got the euros coming to the UK in 2028, which would probably be one of the largest sporting tournaments in this country for a generation. And how might that be an opportunity to talk about a multi-ethnic English team? To talk about football, which is such a global source of joy and shared identity, rooting for the same team. There's so many opportunities like that…

Sonali Shah (16:21):

...Or ribbing each other about different teams. Which happens in our household.

Jake Puddle (16:26):

Ribbing each other, definitely, but in a friendly sense -

Sonali Shah (16:31):

But actually, there is a solidarity to it.

Jake Puddle (16:32):

Yeah, exactly.

Sonali Shah (16:33):

Even that.

Jake Puddle (16:34):

Indeed. Yeah, and I think you can probably safely say that few other parts of our society have done as much for a shared sense of multi-ethnic and inclusive Englishness as football today. That's to acknowledge that obviously there have been serious issues particularly about online hate most recently, and in the past about Hooliganism as well. But in terms of when you look at the team of Bukayo Saka, Marcus Rashford, Jude Bellingham, scoring a goal and millions of people around the UK cheering them on... I mean they are a fantastic symbol of the society we can be. And even encouraging people around the UK to come down to a screening in a local park on a projector screen, or even - I know that I think this upcoming World cup is going to be like some ridiculous time of night - but you can take your kids along usually can't you to some sort of screening outside of a pub where you just sort of bump into local people and cheer on the game. It can be a fantastic source of connection as well.

Sonali Shah (17:34):

In your research, have you come across resistance from people to getting together. When people have tried to break down divisions with a simple community get together, there is sometimes a feeling amongst people that it's, “oh, it's those other people causing problems, they're bad, we are the good ones, we don't have time in our lives to try and interact”. Is there a resistance, or is there a resistance in a certain generation of people?

Jake Puddle (18:04):

Even within the research that we were doing, so, we would show up to a community venue in a particular town or city, and we would deliberately invite people who had different political views, and represented a broad variety of different economic age, gender perspectives, etc. They found it really beneficial and often would come up and shake our hands afterwards and say, “thank you so much for creating this space where we could have this conversation, that we just usually wouldn't”, you know, over the family dinner table, where a lot of the time people might agree with you or down the pub, where you might have your own echo chamber. So, I think... can that pushback exist? I think it can, I think there will always be, particularly I think a hard-line fringe on the extremes of any debate that are very rooted in their own view and closed off to the rest of the public.

(18:57):

But I would say that, broadly speaking, when we do our opinion polling for example, 85% of the public don't fall into those “extreme of the extremes”. They are willing, at least to some degree, to take on and try to understand somebody else's perspective. Particularly when you're organising some sort of activity to facilitate connection, if you do what we call “show, not tell” - you don't make it about “today we are bridging divides, we're bringing together this side of town and this side of town”, you just make it about, “we're going to have a footy tournament” or “we're going to have a Great Get Together” - then people come along. They just want some joy in their lives. And again, so much of what's going on in the world with this sense of “polycrisis” - be it the economy, be it volatile global affairs - people are looking for a bit of escapism. So much of the time, if you don't centre it on our differences, but you centre it on just a bit of an escape, a bit of a chance to have a piece of cake or to have a friendly chat, then there is a real appetite to come and engage with that.

Sonali Shah (20:01):

Yes, that political conversation doesn't need to be shoved down someone's throat as they enter the door.

Jake Puddle (20:07):

Yes, indeed. It can kind of bubble up organically, I suppose. And actually, again pointing back to the research, those connections that make the most difference for our sense of polarisation are those that last over the long term. So, where you can just sort of ideally not have a one-off event but something that keeps people coming back, where they're forming the friendship before they're getting into the kind difficult territory, those are the best. So, I think that's where again, as you say, yeah, not necessarily centring the politics is quite useful.

Sonali Shah (20:34):

When we're trying to understand division, how much do we have to look at ourselves as well as what's going on around us? Do people find it easy to look at themselves?

Jake Puddle (20:48):

No, I don't think so.

Sonali Shah (20:49):

Not in a mirror or through social media, but genuinely kind of question themselves.

Jake Puddle (20:55):

Yeah, yeah, fair point. I mean, I think that is quite a difficult thing. Maybe more and more I think we are starting to become aware of how our behaviours affect how other people experience their sense of community, but also how we shape our own views. And there's definitely been a lot more conversation about things like fake news and how vulnerable we might be to it. It's something I think we tend to find is quite challenging for most people in the public to grapple with, the idea that they might be vulnerable to believing something that's not true, for example. But I think it's an urgent and important conversation that we need to have. The end goal might not necessarily be that you completely radically change somebody else's view, and it might almost be a bit unhealthy to expect that somebody would completely come around to everything that you think. But you might be able to kind of unsettle the certainty with which somebody has believed a conspiracy theory, or believed something that is factually incorrect. You might be able to just, kind of, open them up to the idea that another perspective might be worth considering or taking on board.

Sonali Shah (21:58):

So, it's worth trying, because often that's quite hard to bring yourself to do. I mean, your stat about how most people aren't on the extremes would surprise some people, because people feel like the extreme is all around them and that everyone is polarised. But actually, if most people sit somewhere in the middle, there is going to be quite a lot that we have in common.

Jake Puddle (22:22):

Yeah, that's true. And I think, again, it does come back a bit I think to social media in the sense that, if you were looking online during some of the riots, for example, you might think, “oh my god, that's such a large section of society that's taking out onto the streets”. But I think it was really helpfully pointed out by one account who was comparing attendance at the riots to those of Sunday Park run and saying there’s absolutely no comparison here. And some of the polling also was showing that it really is a very small fringe of 15% or less of society that was supporting that kind of violent disorder. And actually, whether or not people have differences over things like integration or immigration, the broad majority stood for kind of decency and respect. So I think with that in mind, I think there is still a lot of scope for us to be able to have kind of healthy conversations that explore what is part of democratic debate and try to understand how we build a shared society, and that at the same time establishes a much clearer red line on hateful prejudice.

(23:26):

And one thing that we often draw attention to at British Future and our partners - the charity that we did the research with, Belong – they also use what we call the ‘PIN Model’: ‘PIN’ standing for Positions, Interests and Needs. Because a lot of the time, when we're holding conversations, particularly it might be a different family member of another generation or another kind of type of politics, we start from the ‘P’, from positions: what we think and what we feel. And we don't get onto interests or needs, which are, kind of, why we hold those positions, and the kind of long-term goals that we're working towards. What we encourage is, if you flip that and you start your conversations from a sense of, what are your underlying needs? Is it a sense of pride in your community? Is it a sense of economic stability? Then, most of the time, if you start there, people want the same things.

(24:23):

They want dignity in their daily life when they try to access public services; they want fair opportunities when it comes to getting a job; or they want their local high street to be thriving and to look pretty. And so, the positions that kind of crystallise later on, and the changes people want to see, might be different. You might disagree on those, but, if you start from exploring shared needs, then those differences might seem a bit less irreconcilable. So, that's one way that we encourage individuals at least - if you're thinking literally about who you're having a coffee with at the office, or who you might be chatting to down the pub - flipping the order and the kind of style of your conversations on its head can be a way to open up more possibility for at least disrupting people's positions, but also trying to just identify, actually, where do we want to drive at the same future?

(25:15):

We're just coming at it from different angles. Once you get people, particularly on a local issue working towards community action together - and that might be a kind of litter picking day, or it might be protecting a youth club or a pub - so often, then that can open up new connections as well. And one of the things we talk about in our research is just the power of volunteering, as well as inspiring and empowering community voice, to promote community connection and cohesion. Because it literally is about us working together to improve our local space. And if you can do it at the local level, it's not so difficult to imagine that maybe, in a diverse society, we can do that nationally as well.

Sonali Shah (25:54):

I hope people do have the opportunity to volunteer more. When I was at school - that's why I'm here today - I ended up volunteering at a hospital radio station through my school. And I just think, when you do something for someone else, it takes you outside of your own little world and opens it up, and makes you think about something else. And if more schools were able to provide that opportunity, I know they're under so much pressure, and if more communities were able to provide that opportunity to volunteer.

Jake Puddle (26:24):

It's a really good point. I mean we did see I think a bit of an upsurge of that over COVID, and it would be great to see more of that, I think, to try and sustain and build on some of those really positive stories that came out of mutual aid groups and that time. It's not always easy, and we definitely ran into some barriers in our research. For example, I think about half of the public reported not always having enough money to go out and get involved in community life or these sorts of activities. About one in three didn't have the time because they had multiple jobs or caring responsibilities. So I think about how volunteering opportunities can reduce those barriers a little bit, giving people small little things they can do to take part, or free and accessible ways of getting involved in volunteering, I think can go a long way to making a big difference in restoring some of our voluntary spirit as a society. But when you can unlock that, I think yeah, the benefits are really powerful.

Sonali Shah (27:22):

If someone wanted to do something this week... they're listening to you and they're thinking, “you know what? Actually, I need to be a bit more active in trying to reduce the division in my life, in the community around me.” What could they do?

Jake Puddle (27:38):

Yeah, I mean there's quite a few different things you can do. And again, I started out this podcast with a whole cocktail of things that are concerning in the country. It's not all about us as individuals to fix that, but that said, we are not powerless, and we all have that potential I think in our individual lives to make a meaningful sense of difference at the local scale as well. I think you use, when you introduce the podcast, the term bridge builder, I think that's a fantastic word. I think it's something we can all do is to kind of actively push ourselves, I suppose, outside of the bubbles that we all naturally form of people who maybe share similar interests or ideas to us, to try and exploring who in your local area might hold a slightly different point of view to you but still want to come together around a local run club or just something that you can build a shared hobby around.

(28:31):

So pushing yourself into those spaces, I think can be really fantastic in terms of recreating that sense of community life that's been somewhat eroded over recent decades. For me, that literally is going to a run club that is completely free, where we show up at the same place each week and just go on a little run down the River Thames. And we've had people who are refugees, we've had people from a Buddhist monastery down the road, and we've had people from corporate America who are flying in for a conference and just want to stop by for a run. So, you're kind of actively opening yourself up to different perspectives and learning more about how others think and also encouraging yourself into some of those healthy conversations about our shared needs where we can tease out things that we have in common. I definitely think that can make a difference.

(29:20):

And also, I think, when it does come to the big scary online world that we face as well, we're all going through a transition as a society in terms of understanding, “how on earth do we navigate all of this - what feels like this, sometimes, quite toxic space?” But there are particular behaviours that we can try and foster with those around us, as well that can make a big difference. And one thing that I would conveniently fact check is the idea of “fact checking”. It's not always the best way of going about that. If you're thinking about how you talk to an auntie or uncle about something “fruity” that they've seen online, that you know is incorrect - if they're already quite far into believing that sort of perspective, it can be a bit hard, necessarily all the time, to challenge that. But something that's proven by research is this idea of “pre-bunking”, kind of getting there early, to challenge misinformation before it takes root.

(30:19):

That's something that I think anybody can get involved with. Because it can literally be about saying, oh, did you see that YouTube video about microchips in the COVID vaccine? Isn't it wild how people on social media all think they're scientists these days, but they don't have a kind of medical background and, that could be really dangerous if somebody doesn't take the vaccine because they've seen this sort of video. Essentially, exposing people as you would with a vaccine to a kind of small dose of misinformation, and then proving how dangerous it can be, and how to spot it. Getting in there through a kind of early intervention, I suppose you might call it, has been shown to be quite a lot more effective.

Sonali Shah (30:57):

I think that's great advice, because I think I've made the mistake of going head on and immediately fact checking something and saying, well, I'm a journalist, and I'm telling you this is not right. You are believing something that isn't right. But then, they get offended because no one likes to be told they're wrong.

Jake Puddle (31:16):

Exactly.

Sonali Shah (31:17):

I'm offended because they're telling me as a journalist that I don't how to fact check. And so, everyone's just not happy with the situation, and it hasn't achieved much, so there's another way to do it.

Jake Puddle (31:29):

You’re completely right. So often when people have kind of dug into their views, you can accidentally even push them further down into that. And that's where we've just got to be careful, again, to just manage our expectations of how we go into these conversations, which is just that you're just sharing another point of view. And, it's okay if somebody comes out of that and they still really disagree with you, but maybe they've just at least been a little bit more receptive than they were yesterday to another way of looking at things. And, I think I would add to it as well, particularly when we're doing these sorts of conversations online, I've already mentioned that sometimes it's not always the most constructive community space for getting into really difficult issues. But there have been kind of psychological studies on how we go for a bit of a dopamine hit online, and we should really step back from looking at debating politics with “dopamine brain”, thinking, how can I win this argument?

(32:22):

How can I come up with that zinger of a punchline that's going to own the other person? There might be times when somebody has really stepped over a red line into prejudice where you just have to actively kind of call that out or report the comment. And first and foremost, that's the action to take. But where there might be potential to kind of call somebody in to a different point of view, because you can kind of tell that there are some shared needs, or at least that they are willing to take on somebody else's perspective, then actively stepping back, trying to regulate your emotions a little bit, take a deep breath, and then thinking, “okay, how can I engage with their needs or their interests before talking about how we hold different positions?” That can be a much easier way of navigating this, in a way that doesn't leave everyone more angry by the end of the conversation.

[Music fades back in softly.]

Sonali Shah (33:13):

Jake, thank you so much. You've given us so much to think about.

[End of main conversation.]

[Cut to Bridging Divides logo: colourful circles on a yellow background.]

[Cut to closing scene: Podcast host Sonali sits in the studio, speaking directly to the camera.]

I'm Sonali Shah, and you've been listening to Bridging Divides - your guide to navigating and repairing a divided world. Join us again next week, when I'll sit down with Olaf Borghi to explain why we believe what we believe, and how to find common ground in the face of disagreement. If this conversation resonated with you, we'd love you to stay connected. Visit bridging divides.org.uk for practical tools you can use in your own conversations. See you next time.

[Text appears on a yellow background:
“Bridging Divides
Join the community choosing compassion in a divided world
bridgingdivides.co.uk
"]

[A white banner across the bottom of the screen with the British Red Cross logo reads: “A podcast from the British Red Cross”]